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permut8 automations


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#1 rfmusic

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 08:39 AM

Hi everyone, i'm still playing with the demo and i'm trying to make a sort of sequencer for Permut8 using Reaktor (+bidule).
What i'm missing right now is about operands, as you know there are 256 steps for each operand group so it's not possible to map a standard midi cc as the lower operand never activates.
i know i can set midi control to "bits" but in this case i lose the ability to use it as Freq, so here's a couple of suggestion for the next update:

1 - allow pitchbend always to act like when midi control is set to "freq", this will allow to use "freq" feature while we are in bit mode, also allow the ability to map a midi cc to be used as "freq" mode while we are in other midi control modes so we can play notes using that midi cc like when you play midi notes when is in "freq" mode.

2 - enable an automation for every operand switch (32 automations) in addition to the grouped ones (4 automations), this will allow the ability to map each operand to a midi CC, else as alternative the ability to map 2 midi ccs to each operand group se we will be able to make all the combinations using midi.

what i'm missing the most is a sequencer, i've tried using program change but everytime i change i get tons of clicks, what i'm thinking to do with reaktor is to control multiple istances of Permut8 so every step change i will make a crossfade between istances elimitating clicks. Basically every permut8 will set the incoming step anticipatedly and then i will crossfade when is the time.

great fx by the way, finally something different.. best

#2 Magnus Lidström

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:34 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like a very interesting Reaktor project. I am not very familiar with Reaktor tbh and I feel I first have to ask you, isn't it possible to control VST parameters directly via Reaktor? Do you have to control everything through MIDI? (Permut8's MIDI implementation is as you can see very sparse. There is definitely room for improvement here.)

1 - allow pitchbend always to act like when midi control is set to "freq", this will allow to use "freq" feature while we are in bit mode, also allow the ability to map a midi cc to be used as "freq" mode while we are in other midi control modes so we can play notes using that midi cc like when you play midi notes when is in "freq" mode.


The reason the pitch wheel only works in "freq" mode is because it only works when a key is held, and the reason for that is that Permut8 temporarily disables it's phase lock with the host song position (if Permut8 is in synced mode that is). Smoothly changing the clock frequency just wouldn't work in synced mode otherwise.

Would having the different modes active simultaneously on different MIDI channels be another solution to your problem? E.g. controlling bits with notes on channel 1, pitch on channel 2, programs on channel 3. This is an idea that I've had for a while.

2 - enable an automation for every operand switch (32 automations) in addition to the grouped ones (4 automations), this will allow the ability to map each operand to a midi CC, else as alternative the ability to map 2 midi ccs to each operand group se we will be able to make all the combinations using midi.


If by automation you mean exposing every single bit as its own VST parameter I did actually try this once, but it didn't work very well with certain hosts. It's kind of "dangerous" to have one VST parameters that can change others, as I learned with the morph parameter in MicroTonic 3. E.g. it doesn't work properly with AU's in Live.

Basically every permut8 will set the incoming step anticipatedly and then i will crossfade when is the time.


Do you mean you will e.g. send a program change to Permut8 #1, then next time to #2 and quickly crossfade, and then next time back to #1 again. This sounds like a great idea!

I am aware of the clicks in Permut8, and not only with program changes. Permut8 clicks a lot. That's what you get with primitive hardware. Normally, clicks and aliasing is something you avoid like the plague as a dsp developer, but this time I decided to view it as a feature. :)

#3 rfmusic

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 12:30 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds like a very interesting Reaktor project. I am not very familiar with Reaktor tbh and I feel I first have to ask you, isn't it possible to control VST parameters directly via Reaktor? Do you have to control everything through MIDI? (Permut8's MIDI implementation is as you can see very sparse. There is definitely room for improvement here.)


Reaktor doesn't hosts plug-ins at all, i can use both bidule or logic to map any midi cc to any automation, with bidule i can map only midi cc, while with logic i can map almost everything but it's a pain.
So basically in order to be able to control all operands i must be in "bit" mode and use midi notes.

Would having the different modes active simultaneously on different MIDI channels be another solution to your problem? E.g. controlling bits with notes on channel 1, pitch on channel 2, programs on channel 3. This is an idea that I've had for a while.

that's a great idea, you mean we should be able to have all 3 modes simultaneouslty ? about preset swicthing is not a big problem as it works with program changes, but the ability to use boht "bit" and "freq" mode simultaneously would be great!

If by automation you mean exposing every single bit as its own VST parameter I did actually try this once, but it didn't work very well with certain hosts. It's kind of "dangerous" to have one VST parameters that can change others, as I learned with the morph parameter in MicroTonic 3. E.g. it doesn't work properly with AU's in Live.

i should not need it anymore if you do the double midi channel simultaneously as you said above.

Do you mean you will e.g. send a program change to Permut8 #1, then next time to #2 and quickly crossfade, and then next time back to #1 again. This sounds like a great idea!
I am aware of the clicks in Permut8, and not only with program changes. Permut8 clicks a lot. That's what you get with primitive hardware. Normally, clicks and aliasing is something you avoid like the plague as a dsp developer, but this time I decided to view it as a feature. :)


the idea is to use more than 2 because i've seen that if i use feedback i need the buffer to end at least once in order to have the right sound. my idea was to use reaktor entirely to control every parameter cause i wanted to use both freq and bit togheter, i can do it but i will not be able to automate the last operand of each group.
I'll start with program changes when i'll have some time just to see how crossfading works, photo attached.
best

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#4 rfmusic

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 02:48 AM

ok made it, very embrional but results are great, now it sounds very smoothly and elegant and it merges much better with my stuff :)

you need reaktor 5.6.2 and plogue bidule plug-in version, mine is 0.9721, just load bidule MFX as effect and load the reaktor ensemble included in the zip.
enjoy

i'll post newer versions if i go forward with it, i want to add swing at least and maybe a randomizer and something else...

i've created also a button in order to listen how it is without the crossfading..

damnit it's 5AM!! :)


Edit: good morning, i've attached 2 audio demos, it's the same pattern sequence with and without crossfade, just in case you (still) don't own Reaktor and/or bidule ;)

EDIT2: Hallo again, new version, added randomizer, a knob for fine sync, a knob for changing the table offset, swing for 16th steps, a selector for crossfade time length and a better table with up to 128 steps, horizontal zoom, ability to make custom loop lengths and ability to go reverse.

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#5 rfmusic

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 09:25 AM

i've just uploaded a new version..
enjoy :)

#6 00.1

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 04:28 PM

Would having the different modes active simultaneously on different MIDI channels be another solution to your problem? E.g. controlling bits with notes on channel 1, pitch on channel 2, programs on channel 3. This is an idea that I've had for a while.

This would be nice, but I find that stacking Permut8's plays well too. One instance for frequency movements and another for bit movements. This way gives me the option to not let the bit movements be affected by clock frequency movements.

Renoise is the environment I use Permut8 with and the native meta devices are flexible enough for sweeps, steps, signal modulation, and random, if I decide to not use midi control for bits.




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