Permut8 Rack Extension

Ilya Korsun2 680 views20 posts
  • Users avatarIlya Korsun

    This is possible with new Rack Extension SDK 2.0? I guess not, but who knows :)

  • Users avatarMagnus Lidström

    Exactly my question too. Who knows? ;)

  • Users avatarIlya Korsun

    - Magnus Lidström wrote:
    Exactly my question too. Who knows? ;)

    Ouch. Did you check new RE SDK? Beta testing in progress ;)

  • Users avatarnull

    ** redacted **

  • Users avatarEnochLight

    - Magnus Lidström wrote:
    Exactly my question too. Who knows? ;)

    Heh - you're killing me, man! :)

  • Users avatarJoey Luck

    It has to be possible. It just has to be.

    Propellerhead's only goal regarding RE SDK should be...

    "How do we get all of Sonic Charge's plugins into the Reason rack?"

  • Users avatarJoey Luck

    Also, is there any crossgrade pricing option for folks who currently own one of your plugins and are looking to purchase the RE version? (I already own both REs... But for example: Bitspeek)

    I'm asking, just in case I decide to set my patience aside and buy the Permut8 VST now and get the Permut8 RE (which is most optimal for me) sometime down the road whenever that is possible/available...

    Thanks!

  • Users avatarJmob

    ok, we have waited long enough. can this puppy be ported to reason yet? throw a dog a bone man. I own both your rack extensions and they are incredible. However, I need this. I really do. We all need it. We have cash in hand ready to buy.

    Seriously though, any kind of hint would be great. A hint like:

    1. "why yes, the new sdk will allow me to port this app, no promises though"

    Or, a total fact bummer like:

    1. "no, the sdk will not allow me to port it over"

    either one will do but obviously, we are rooting for hint number one.

  • Users avatarEnochLight

    I'm guessing we won't likely hear anything for the month of July, as most of Sweden is on vacation. That said, I think there's a few other projects that Magnus mentioned he and Fredrick must focus on before they can return to RE's. :(

    - Jmob wrote:
    ok, we have waited long enough. can this puppy be ported to reason yet? throw a dog a bone man. I own both your rack extensions and they are incredible. However, I need this. I really do. We all need it. We have cash in hand ready to buy.

    Seriously though, any kind of hint would be great. A hint like:

    1. "why yes, the new sdk will allow me to port this app, no promises though"

    Or, a total fact bummer like:

    2. "no, the sdk will not allow me to port it over"

    either one will do but obviously, we are rooting for hint number one.
  • Users avatarIlya Korsun

    bump :rolleyes:

  • Users avatarEnochLight

    It truly is a painful wait. :)

  • Users avatarJoey Luck

    Heads up...

    There's another thread on the same topic. But it hasn't had any recent responses. It did have some responses from Fredrik (a year ago).

    http://soniccharge.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329-permut8-as-rack-extention/?hl=%2Brack+%2Bextension

    So, it's been two years since Permut8 was released as a VST. It's been a year since the last response on the topic.

    Can we get the annual update? =)

  • Users avatarEnochLight

    Magnus actually replied in this thread in February of this year, so it's been about 7 months since we last heard anything. Of course, all he said was "who knows" when asked if SDK 2 will now allow it to happen.. :) Not sure what those guys are doing, but they've been pretty quiet these past few months.

    - joeyluck wrote:
    Heads up...

    There's another thread on the same topic. But it hasn't had any recent responses. It did have some responses from Fredrik (a year ago).

    http://soniccharge.com/forum/index.php?/topic/329-permut8-as-rack-extention/?hl=%2Brack+%2Bextension

    So, it's been two years since Permut8 was released as a VST. It's been a year since the last response on the topic.

    Can we get the annual update? =)
  • Users avatarMagnus Lidström

    Hey guys!

    I'm flattered by your persistent request for more RE's from us! It is truly a reward to see such enthusiasm for our work. And it makes it tough, cause I don't want to disappoint you, but at the same time nothing much has changed since last year. We're still working on upgrades to all our existing VSTs, including the infamous Synplant 2. Half my year has gone into refactoring existing products and building a new unified high-level plug-in framework that should enable us to produce and maintain more plug-ins in the future. The other half has gone into a hopelessly difficult but wonderful addition to Synplant 2.

    We like to keep our business small and personal. I wouldn't want it any other way. The downside to this is that with just the two of us (and with the quality standards we maintain) there is a constant shortage of time. Apart from this, in the case of RE's, a couple of lacking technologies have withheld us from realizing Permut8 and Microtonic, and from what I've seen of SDK 2 this still holds true. The main thing that I miss is support for true indirect "meta-parameters". (Something which I have requested many times since the inception of RE.) We could possibly solve the Permut8 GUI with a workaround using the new custom displays. But these displays are limited to a few drawing primitives and there is no chance we could make them look as nice as the VST.

    Which brings me to the second issue we have with RE. The GUI's where quite a pain to realize for Fredrik. He worked much harder on our two RE's than I did. As he is more or less constantly drowning in work (he is not only doing GUIs :) !), he has had to prioritized other work. Work that simply is more profitable and important for Sonic Charge. I say this in all respect for the Reason platform and Rack Extensions, you guys know how deeply involved I've been in Propellerheads for 20 years now, but Rack Extensions didn't exactly turn out to be cash cows. I don't know, perhaps we just don't know how to play the RE market right, but the two RE's we have together has brought in a fraction of what for instance Bitspeek VST/AU has done alone.

  • Users avatarEnochLight

    - Magnus Lidström wrote:
    Hey guys!

    I'm flattered by your persistent request for more RE's from us! It is truly a reward to see such enthusiasm for our work. And it makes it tough, cause I don't want to disappoint you, but at the same time nothing much has changed since last year. We're still working on upgrades to all our existing VSTs, including the infamous Synplant 2. Half my year has gone into refactoring existing products and building a new unified high-level plug-in framework that should enable us to produce and maintain more plug-ins in the future. The other half has gone into a hopelessly difficult but wonderful addition to Synplant 2.

    We like to keep our business small and personal. I wouldn't want it any other way. The downside to this is that with just the two of us (and with the quality standards we maintain) there is a constant shortage of time. Apart from this, in the case of RE's, a couple of lacking technologies have withheld us from realizing Permut8 and Microtonic, and from what I've seen of SDK 2 this still holds true. The main thing that I miss is support for true indirect "meta-parameters". (Something which I have requested many times since the inception of RE.) We could possibly solve the Permut8 GUI with a workaround using the new custom displays. But these displays are limited to a few drawing primitives and there is no chance we could make them look as nice as the VST.

    Which brings me to the second issue we have with RE. The GUI's where quite a pain to realize for Fredrik. He worked much harder on our two RE's than I did. As he is more or less constantly drowning in work (he is not only doing GUIs :) !), he has had to prioritized other work. Work that simply is more profitable and important for Sonic Charge. I say this in all respect for the Reason platform and Rack Extensions, you guys know how deeply involved I've been in Propellerheads for 20 years now, but Rack Extensions didn't exactly turn out to be cash cows. I don't know, perhaps we just don't know how to play the RE market right, but the two RE's we have together has brought in a fraction of what for instance Bitspeek VST/AU has done alone.

    Thanks for your candid response, Magnus. While we're obviously disappointed that neither Permut8 RE or Microtonic RE are able to happen right now, we really appreciate the insight and comments and I'd wager that everyone understands your position completely. Hopefully the RE SDK will advance to include these much ended features some day..

    In the mean time, very much looking forward to what Sonic Charge holds for the future - Synplant 2 sounds like it will shape up to be an amazing update! :)

  • Users avatarMagnus Lidström

    Thanks Dylan. I've seen the commotion on the Propellerheads forum last few days and I'm not sure I need to clarify but we have not pulled out of RE development in case anyone got that impression. We are just not sure when / how / if we'll be able to work on RE because we need to prioritize on our core business, which is VST / AU development. One-to-one RE ports of Microtonic, Permut8 and Synplant are also impossible (without too many compromises) because of lacking features in the RE SDK. I joined forces with Peff and Bitplant earlier this year to create Crapre, and that was a great experience. However, I know Merkle are very busy too. But talk will continue.

    I have great respect for Propellerheads and the Rack Extension format. It is a massive technological achievement. The brutal reality is that if RE had been a better financial investment for us (and the graphics a bit easier to design) we might have put out a number of RE only products by now. I am not sure why our RE's are not selling better. I blame the mysterious ways of the markets. I know of developers who are perfectly happy with their RE sales.

    One also has to take into account the massive investment that we have already made into AU / VST technology. We have worked more than 10 years now on perfecting the way we build AU / VSTs. It's been tough. I have developed my own solutions for doing cross-platform GUI, thread-safety, scripting, copy protection, FFT, just to mention a few things that you get for free in RE. I have developed the open source Symbiosis for easy bridging between the formats. The automated build and test system that Fredrik and I have created feels like something that NASA would be proud of. Not to mention our own online shop etc. Years and years of work gone into backend stuff. On top of that, DAWs, plug-in platforms, operating systems and browsers are moving targets. We spend frightengly much time just on keeping up with the world around us.

    In return we have a large audience to sell to and 100% freedom to build whatever we can imagine with whatever looks we can imagine. Rack Extensions are like the opposite. They are easy to maintain (possibly zero cost!) but more limited in what you can build, how they should look and how many units you can sell.

    Pros and cons to everything. It's a struggle.

  • Users avatarGabe Tompkins

    - Magnus Lidström wrote:

    Thanks Dylan. I've seen the commotion on the Propellerheads forum last few days and I'm not sure I need to clarify but we have not pulled out of RE development in case anyone got that impression. We are just not sure when / how / if we'll be able to work on RE because we need to prioritize on our core business, which is VST / AU development. One-to-one RE ports of Microtonic, Permut8 and Synplant are also impossible (without too many compromises) because of lacking features in the RE SDK. I joined forces with Peff and Bitplant earlier this year to create Crapre, and that was a great experience. However, I know Merkle are very busy too. But talk will continue.
    I have great respect for Propellerheads and the Rack Extension format. It is a massive technological achievement. The brutal reality is that if RE had been a better financial investment for us (and the graphics a bit easier to design) we might have put out a number of RE only products by now. I am not sure why our RE's are not selling better. I blame the mysterious ways of the markets. I know of developers who are perfectly happy with their RE sales.
    One also has to take into account the massive investment that we have already made into AU / VST technology. We have worked more than 10 years now on perfecting the way we build AU / VSTs. It's been tough. I have developed my own solutions for doing cross-platform GUI, thread-safety, scripting, copy protection, FFT, just to mention a few things that you get for free in RE. I have developed the open source Symbiosis for easy bridging between the formats. The automated build and test system that Fredrik and I have created feels like something that NASA would be proud of. Not to mention our own online shop etc. Years and years of work gone into backend stuff. On top of that, DAWs, plug-in platforms, operating systems and browsers are moving targets. We spend frightengly much time just on keeping up with the world around us.
    In return we have a large audience to sell to and 100% freedom to build whatever we can imagine with whatever looks we can imagine. Rack Extensions are like the opposite. They are easy to maintain (possibly zero cost!) but more limited in what you can build, how they should look and how many units you can sell.
    Pros and cons to everything. It's a struggle.

    Admittedly I've been a little bit dismissive of Bitspeek in the past, seeing it more as a slightly expensive novelty device than a truly useful effect plugin. However wrong that impression was I'm probably not the only one who felt that way and this may have played a part in why it hasn't been the runaway Prop Shop success you hoped. Part of the issue may have been timing as well, with demand for specialized plugins like this just not being as high as others. Reason 6 and rack extensions completely changed the scope of the program for dedicated users and because it was so new there were (and still are) a lot of traditional plugin gaps that needed to be filled such as reverbs, chorus, compressors, EQs, instruments, etc… They've probably been getting the most attention (and RE purchases) compared to more esoteric effects.

    I'm not sure why, but Echobode went completely under my radar and it wasn't until a recent forum thread brought me here that I became aware of it. It's brilliant of course and I actually just bought it tonight, but I can't help wondering why it's taken me this long to learn about it.

    As a longtime SonicCharge VST customer and also Reason user, I would of course like to see you thrive on both platforms. Hopefully when things settle down with all of the VST3/AAX/64-bit platform maintenance that everyone seems to be struggling with these days, you'll again consider returning to rack extension development. Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm. :)

  • Users avatarRoss Martyn

    Any news on this? I've just bought Echobode and I'm leaning towards just staying in reason now because it seems more powerful than ever before with the new rack extensions available. Permut8 and Reason seem like a match made in heaven and I feel a bit funny just thinking about it! Echobode and Permut8 together mangling my Kong beats would make my ears and brain explode. Now if I could find some kind of RE that uses kittens, rainbows and unicorns to help tie it all together then surely I would create music that opens up portals to alternative universes. Either that or it would just sound crap! ;)

  • Users avatarJ. R.

    Any progress on this? Permut8 RE would be awesome!

  • Users avatarnic

    Hey Magnus,the "Infamous Symplant 2" is a great name! I candidate it as the official v2 name ;-)
    cheers!
    Nic

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